[Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
Crispin Weston
crispin.weston@alphalearning.co.uk
Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:42:03 -0000
Hi Keith,
As with my previous reply to Neil Adam, I agree that the process might be more challenging than agreeing the goal.
I agree with you that the usefulness of data-driven systems will often depend on the school's ability to make appropriate interventions - which is the bit of the equation which requires innovation from schools.
And I am sure that in-school data managers are important - but there is a danger that the investment which you refer to becomes unsustainable if the underlying software does not make it easy enough. My whole argument rests on the need to enable a competitive market which will provide tools which are fit for purpose and easy to use. I think there is a danger in trying to leverage inadequate tools which leads to schools and Local Authorities having, at great expense, to reinvent all sorts of very complex technical wheels.
The discussion I am therefore interested in within the context of SALTIS (www.saltis.org) is not "how do you use your VLE/MIS/e-portfolio" and not even "what do you want tomorrow's VLE/MIS/e-porfolio to do" (which is a discussion to have with individual suppliers) but "how do you want tomorrow's VLE/MIS/e-porfolio systems to work together". The answers to that question (which need to be decided on collectively within the industry) percolate down and affect all the others. And it would be really useful if the industry discussions which we are having (for example within SALTIS) can be better informed by inputs from the educational community - and particularly, perhaps, from NAACE.
Crispin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: secondary-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:secondary-
> admin@talk.naace.org] On Behalf Of BL Mr K Buncle
> Sent: 06 January 2010 09:44
> To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> Subject: RE: [Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
>
> This is a very interesting strand.
>
> It is clear in my mind that data is only useful if it can help
> teachers to move students learning forward. We do have several
> stakeholder audiences here. In many cases parents want to know what
> grade or level their child is either working towards at present or
> likely achieve, pupils need to know what they need to do to achieve
> the grades or levels. Teachers, Head of departments, Governors want
> to be assured that teaching and learning is on track to meet the
> targets and OFSTED and Local Authorities have similar agendas. I
> hope that I am not doing anyone a dis-service here. Reporting is
> complex and requires thought and planning to meet the various needs
> if you are to avoid constantly entering data in different formats.
> Very often the students requirements for feedback are masked by the
> demands of these stakeholders and yet they are the stakeholders that
> have the most to gain.
> Having a competent person in a senior position to oversee the many
> facets is something that schools have begun to appreciate over the
> past few years.
> As with many schools:
> � We have had full electronic registration (including lesson by
> lesson).
> � We have had regular electronic reporting, although we still print
> them out on paper and post them home.
> � A phased training of staff from using the hardware, software and
> advice on how to write reports.
> � A rolling program of updating the technology.
> However we also have a dedicated data management team and in house
> technical support that has taken time to bring together. This is a
> huge investment.
> The investment is however wasted if the data collected is
> meaningless and unused. The data team spend time analysing the
> information and provide the different stakeholders with meaningful
> feedback. If there is no impact in the classroom that helps in
> moving students learning forward then one should question the value
> of the process! We are currently looking at what real time
> reporting will look like in the future.
>
> The discussion here has moved on to look at this idea that parents
> will see what their child has done during a particular school day.
> Is this a reality in a majority of schools in all subject areas and
> all phases? Could it be a reality at Key stage 3 and 4?
>
> We have over 1000 computers accessed by 1300 students and i could
> not say that this was possible in more than a few subject areas,
> what is the model that we want for our students in the future.
>
> Keith Buncle
> Data Systems Leader
> South Bromsgrove Community High School
>
> ________________________________________
> From: secondary-admin@talk.naace.org [secondary-
> admin@talk.naace.org] On Behalf Of Ray Tolley [rjt@maximise-
> ict.co.uk]
> Sent: 05 January 2010 20:00
> To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> Subject: RE: [Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
>
> John, you bring to mind an anecdote:
>
> Before VLEs or Home Access, a parent would ask their child what they
> have
> done in school today, with the usual response, "Nothing much."
>
> When the VLE was launched, the child rushed home, switched on the
> computer
> and said, "Come and see what I've done in school today!"
>
> Weeks later, when parental access had been introduced, the child
> came home
> to the exclamation from the parent, "Wow, congratulations! I've been
> looking
> on line at your work today, and I'm so proud of you!"
>
> That to me is a significant aspect of what on-line reporting is all
> about.
>
> Ray Tolley FEIDCT, NAACE Fellow, ACQI, MBILD
> ICT Education Consultant
> Maximise ICT Ltd
> P: http://raytolley.v2efolioworld.mnscu.edu/
> B: http://www.efoliointheuk.blogspot.com/
> W: http://www.maximise-ict.co.uk/eFolio-01.htm
> Winner of the IMS 'Leadership Regional Award 2009'
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advisory-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:advisory-
> admin@talk.naace.org]
> On Behalf Of John Wasteney
> Sent: 05 January 2010 17:42
> To: 'Ray Tolley'; advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> Subject: RE: [Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
>
> A very interesting series of posts on the topic of online real time
> reporting. Many of the schools I am working with are also engaging
> in the
> same debates as expressed over the last day or two here.
>
> I think that Ray and others are right when they talk about online
> reporting
> as being a new phenomenon. Most headteachers, teachers, education
> professionals initially tend to think of online-reporting as simply
> being a
> replacement/substitute for the traditional school report of old.
> Then of
> course the notion of real time enters the thinking and the
> recognition that
> it is impossible to replace the traditional reflective and summative
> report
> issued termly or annually as real time.
>
> The difficulty arises from the word 'report' as this is already well
> defined
> in the mindset. Once we eliminate the notion of we think it means
> and carry
> out the activity that Ray suggest - talk to the parents about what
> they want
> we begin to get a very different picture of real time reporting.
> Albeit in
> limited form the feedback I get from parents us not about APP,
> tracking of
> progress, data related to performance and attainment scores. Yes
> this
> recognised as being useful perhaps a couple of times a year (at a
> parents
> evening and then 6 months later), but the information they want
> relates much
> more to
>
> What are my offspring doing in school today (topics, themes and
> activities)
> Are they actually having a school lunch (secondary)- do they eat
> their lunch
> (primary)
> Are they involved in extra curricular activities
> Homework tasks
> Timetables of activities when sons/daughters might need to take the
> extra
> things they need PE kit, cooking ingredients, etc
> An eye into the kind of work they are doing so when they ask what
> have you
> been doing in school today and they get the usual reply - "not a
> lot", they
> can look at some images/current scheme of work/peek at their
> offspring's
> e-portfolio to initiate a conversation.
>
> Many of these are generic things that do not need to be about what
> each
> individual has contributed. The year 4 class teacher who posts up a
> few
> digital images (usually taken by pupils) of the activities on the
> class blog
> is reporting to parents. Things like attendance and behaviour are
> pertinent
> to some but not all parents and certainly many parents feel that
> existing
> systems which text or email parents if a child is absent without
> notification are well established in many schools now.
>
> Most parents that I have spoken to (including those who are
> teachers) are
> not interested in the bar charts, histograms, line graphs and pie
> charts
> that demonstrate the points scores from each unit of work. Parents
> want to
> know are offspring happy, engaged in learning, developing emotional
> and
> social confidence. If however a pupil does start to be noticeably
> under-performing, their are attitude changes, pupil suddenly becomes
> unhappy, disinterested etc that is when a proactive personal contact
> needs
> to be made by the school to the teacher.
>
> This leads me to my next area of concern - parents do know that
> learning is
> not linear and that many factors influence and shape the way an
> individual
> learns, they have good days and bad days, good lessons and not so
> good
> lessons, yet currently we seem to be in a culture which is data
> focussed and
> teachers are pressurised to assess, track and monitor progress to
> the n'th
> degree. At each monitoring pupils must be seen to demonstrate
> progress. This
> has led to a huge dishonesty in the system particularly in secondary
> schools
> with significant numbers of teachers backwardly engineering the
> starting
> point assessment and using a loaded assessment dice to conjure up
> figures to
> keep Mr Ofsted happy.
>
> As stated in another post we do not fatten pigs by weighing them,
> but the
> current regime seems to be saying so you had better weigh them more
> often! I
> have done a lot of work with secondary schools on using APP - which
> can be
> an excellent tool if used wisely. It promotes the idea that we
> should not
> atomise the learning outcomes into smaller chunks, that we should
> look at
> progress over a significant period of time, it recognises that
> individuals
> may be better at some aspects of a subject than others yet we can
> aggregate
> a rounded attainment result yet having identified for us as teachers
> and
> shared with learners areas that need to be developed.
>
> regards,
>
> John
>
> John Wasteney
> Managing Director
> Strategic Education Consultancy Ltd
>
> Tel: 01455 290960
> Mob:07810 446176
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advisory-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:advisory-
> admin@talk.naace.org]
> On Behalf Of Ray Tolley
> Sent: 05 January 2010 12:40
> To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> Subject: RE: [Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
>
> Crispin,
>
> For once I feel that I must disagree with you. Your bar-code
> illustration
> is excellent but the observation that you make, "Most schools have
> very
> little useful performance or competency data in their systems." is a
> dangerous argument to make. On-line and real-time reporting is a
> relatively
> new phenomenon. And yet there are fabulous systems out there for
> tracking
> pupils' progress and for that matter the feedback provided by
> teachers.
> Rather than judging the potential of a product by the takeup of a
> meandering
> majority, why not ask those schools which are focussed on exploring
> real-time availability of information, whether grades, smiley faces,
> ad hoc
> written comments or even, dare I suggest, e-Portfolios?
>
> Agreed, attendance figures are a somewhat mundane and easy to
> process data
> set, but at least, if parents are being encouraged to access that
> information it is a start and should be commended rather than
> criticised.
> Perhaps a little more support of local schools by intelligent
> parents,
> perhaps better communication from schools inviting parents to meet
> with
> staff in order to discuss the whole issue of real-time reporting
> might be a
> better approach?
>
> BW
>
> Ray Tolley FEIDCT, NAACE Fellow, ACQI, MBILD
> ICT Education Consultant
> Maximise ICT Ltd
> P: http://raytolley.v2efolioworld.mnscu.edu/
> B: http://www.efoliointheuk.blogspot.com/
> W: http://www.maximise-ict.co.uk/eFolio-01.htm
> Winner of the IMS 'Leadership Regional Award 2009'
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: secondary-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:secondary-
> admin@talk.naace.org]
> On Behalf Of Crispin Weston
> Sent: 05 January 2010 09:49
> To: Colin@revell.org.uk; advisory@talk.naace.org;
> secondary@talk.naace.org
> Subject: [Secondary] RE: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
>
> It has always struck me that the real-time reporting agenda has a
> massive
> missing piece: where is the data that you are meant to be reporting
> on?
> I thought Chris Gerry (an innovative Head Teacher from Kent) made an
> excellent presentation at the NAACE autumn conference, pointing out
> that
> while Tesco analyses data on virtually every aspect of shoppers'
> purchasing
> preferences, schools are, in terms of business intelligence, still
> in a sort
> of Dickensian Dark Age of paper-based ledgers. Most schools have
> very little
> useful performance or competency data in their systems. There's a
> big
> emphasis on attendance, I suspect, because it is about the only
> useful
> real-time data that schools have.
> The feet of clay of any business intelligence system is data input -
> and
> manual input is never the answer. The revolution for the
> supermarkets lay in
> the bar-code reader. The revolution for schools will be when
> learning
> software (really useful and compelling in its own right) can report
> student
> performance and competence straight into central systems, which must
> also of
> course be able to make sense of that data.
> I think that until this kind of interoperable data flow is sorted
> out, most
> of the energy in real time reporting programme will go on covering
> up the
> fact that schools will simply be unable to deliver what has been
> promised by
> the government.
> Crispin.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: advisory-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:advisory-
> > admin@talk.naace.org] On Behalf Of Colin J Revell
> > Sent: 31 December 2009 18:05
> > To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> > Subject: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Schools
> >
> > Some thought for comment;
> >
> > Being as I am in the process of rolling out secure online access
> to
> > parents
> > I find it interesting that there is very little "official"
> > information about
> > this that I have come across. If you search online for real time
> > reporting
> > to parents or similar, you mainly get references to the letter
> that
> > Ed Balls
> > released at BETT in Jan 2008.
> >
> > Where is the official guidance of exactly what has to be done, by
> > whom and
> > by when - as far as I can see there is more rumour than substance
> > and I am
> > wandering, in my more cynical moments, how much of the momentum
> for
> > this
> > change is coming from the MIS providers?
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: secondary-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:secondary-
> > admin@talk.naace.org]
> > On Behalf Of Tony Parkin
> > Sent: 31 December 2009 14:22
> > To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> > Cc: Ray Tolley
> > Subject: RE: [Secondary] FW: [Advisory] Online Reporting in
> Primary
> > Schools
> >
> > Fergus
> >
> > ... and it may be worth a reminder to those schools exploring
> this
> > journey
> > of the 'expectations' in this area, as currently delineated on the
> > Becta
> > website.....?
> > Ray might even like to ask suppliers in his calls how their
> > offerings
> > measure up against these requirements?
> >
> > "What is online reporting?
> >
> > Online reporting involves using ICT to enable parents to receive
> and
> > access
> > information about their children's work, progress, attendance and
> > behaviour
> > when and where they want, using secure, online access.
> >
> > What do I have to do and when?
> >
> > Secondary schools are expected to make the following information
> > available
> > to parents through secure online access by September 2010:
> > * Attendance and behaviour (both positive and challenging)
> > * Progress and attainment
> > * Special needs
> > All primary schools are expected to achieve this by September
> 2012."
> >
> > It is worth noting that not all these aspects are addressed in
> some
> > of the
> > solutions being promoted to schools as ideal ways of meeting these
> > aspirations.
> >
> > Also perhaps that 'real-time reporting', though clearly invaluable
> > and
> > undoubtedly welcomed by parents, is NOT part of the specification?
> >
> > Tony
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Tony Parkin
> > Head of ICT Development
> > Specialist Schools & Academies Trust
> > 17th Floor, Millbank Tower
> > 21-24 Millbank
> > London SW1P 4QP
> >
> > Email:tony.parkin@ssatrust.org.uk
> > Tel: +44 20 7802 2306
> > Mob:+44 07739 436073
> > Skype: parkintony
> > MSN: a.c.parkin@hotmail.co.uk
> > --------------------------------------------
> > ________________________________________
> > From: secondary-admin@talk.naace.org [secondary-
> > admin@talk.naace.org] On
> > Behalf Of Ray Tolley [rjt@maximise-ict.co.uk]
> > Sent: 31 December 2009 12:41
> > To: advisory@talk.naace.org; secondary@talk.naace.org
> > Subject: [Secondary] FW: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Primary
> > Schools
> >
> > Hi, Fergus,
> >
> > I agree with Tony up to a point, but 'reports' are always about
> past
> > experience and possibly previous teaching and learning styles. I
> > did a
> > quick phone-round of some of the suppliers but unfortunately they
> > were all
> > on holiday.
> >
> > I have my own ideas on the benefits of on-line reporting and will
> > 'interrogate' leading known suppliers as to how they see on-line
> > reporting
> > moving in the near future. - I will report back shortly - probably
> > next
> > week.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I would suggest that there are three different aspects
> to
> > this
> > issue:
> >
> > 1. The appropriate access to real-time reporting of progress
> > through
> > activities completed using some form of assessment software like
> > 'SmartAssess';
> > 2. The reporting written by teachers, that can be reasonably up-
> to-
> > date,
> > such as provided by SERCO/CMIS/Facility;
> > 3. The formative and possibly informal reporting available
> through
> > a good
> > e-Portfolio system.
> >
> > I'm sure that there are several other competitive products - but
> > firstly it
> > will depend on your present VLE provider.
> >
> > PS: BETT will be a good source of advice even if coloured by some
> > degree of
> > 'sales pitch'.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> >
> > Ray Tolley FEIDCT, NAACE Fellow, ACQI, MBILD
> > ICT Education Consultant
> > Maximise ICT Ltd
> > P: http://raytolley.v2efolioworld.mnscu.edu/
> > B: http://www.efoliointheuk.blogspot.com/
> > W: http://www.maximise-ict.co.uk/eFolio-01.htm
> > Winner of the IMS 'Leadership Regional Award 2009'
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: advisory-admin@talk.naace.org [mailto:advisory-
> > admin@talk.naace.org]
> > On Behalf Of Fergus Reynolds
> > Sent: 31 December 2009 09:18
> > To: advisory@talk.naace.org
> > Subject: [Advisory] Online Reporting in Primary Schools
> >
> > Colleagues,
> >
> > Does anybody have any advice, hints or tips on developing online
> > reporting in Primary schools? I am interested in examples of good
> > practice and any suggestions colleagues may have to help avoid
> > pitfalls in getting going. I am also interested in any schools
> that
> > colleagues could recommend as examples of good practice in this
> area
> > -
> > especially in the North West of England. Any help, comments, etc
> > appreciated.
> > I am happy to receive responses offline if colleagues prefer that.
> I
> > would be happy to collate responses if anyone would be interested
> in
> > receiving that. Thanks in anticipation.
> >
> > Best wishes for a Happy new Year
> >
> > Fergus Reynolds
> > _______________________________________________
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